How to give efficient feedback to party members?

    The tide is high and the grounds for drama have been plowed, another high-end raid-dungeon is coming in, and the tension is high. From personal issues to insecurities to your everyday humane social awkwardness that you get in your average MMO team plays, I hereby offer you a few ideas, which hopefully will help you become a member, coach or leader of your guild, group, team or raid that is actually capable of being constructive without even leaving a hint of offense to your fellow players.


    You think you'd make a great coach? I think so too. Anyone can be. But here I make the note to you that it actually does take some effort and practice to be a coach that people love and appreciate - a coach that can give magical feedback on the go without making anyone upset and feel like it's time to drop the party.


    I'm not a loved and appreciated coach, just fyi, so you may take my word with a grain of salt. What I write here, though, is not something that I made up on my own, but learned from actual cases, actual people - good and bad leaders both, and simply by observing how some things work, and how some don't.


    If you're interested in empowering your playing friends and team members, this is a discussion worth having : )


    Nobody becomes a loved and appreciated coach or leader over night - it takes a mindset, and a mindset takes time to settle in. And a mindset needs to be learned and fully understood before it can start settling in. So, here I provide just a start, but starting it is the most important part - I hope that already after reading trough this you might have a grasp on what I'm going at and can start using these little tweaks to make your feedback magical.


    * * *


    What do we really expect when giving feedback to others?


    So, your run is going to shit, and you think you figure whom to point the finger at. Now, before going to the next step, which is what we all tend to do without thinking too much, DO THINK, what kind of a response are you ideally expecting to get from the person you are about the give your feedback to?


    "Wow, great advice, thanks!",
    "Oops, forgot about that, sorry!"
    "Oh, I didn't think of that, pretty neat."
    "Sure, I can't really figure out x y z, how does it work can you explain closer?"
    "Let's try one more, I think I got it this time".


    I love it when people take feedback with grace and it fixes the problem. Who don't?


    After all, The idea of feedback is for someone to get or do something right, or to get them to do something in a way that you expect them to. And since people are not computers, we can't really achieve that by entering a command, "do this-that," and expect that this-that is how things will go now.


    You're going to have to be a bit more elegant than that. I will offer an idea of elegance soon, below.


    * * *


    The general types of people we get to play with, simplified (and how they react to our robust feedback):


    1.-5. Insufferable, insecure, unstable, dramatic, overly-sensitive kinds.
    You will often find that if you just blurt out during a wipe your view on how things should be done, people take offense in it, become defensive, log off, drop the party.


    6. Stoicists.
    Some are indifferent to how or if you give your feedback - because they really are bigger people - they are super open, super kind and super compassionate - and they are a blast to play with, ik!


    7. Optimistic enthusiasts.
    Yes, there are cases where your sentence of opinion snipes the mark - you made an assumption, you took a guess, you blurt it out and by a weird chance that actually was something your target needed to hear and appreciates. It happens.


    Now, it would be an awesome team if all your 5-20 members of the group would be the stoicists and optimistic enthusiasts. I assure you - they are a super rare kind, and 20 stoicists/enthusiasts in one raid will LIKELY never happen. I do not know statistically how many of us belong to the 1.-5. - It's a safe bet there's more of them than the two latter.


    So, there's a high chance that when you open your mouth and are not tactful about it - someone is going to end up leaving the party or just start performing worse because you are putting the extra pressure on them, and they believe it's not justified.


    Here's the deal, though. 1.-5. are also VERY coachable people - if you feel and have thoroughly experienced that they are not, you've probably just not been giving feedback in the best possible way.


    And let me make that clear - going the extra mile is NOT babysitting those people. It's not catering to their weaknesses, it's not enabling them to remain in their obnoxious ways. Being elegant with your feedback isn't a weakness - it is something that makes you very powerful and unbelievably influential.
    It is all about you and your excellence. And if you want people to do things right, and their recognition, gratitude and respect - this is how you make a run for it.


    * * *


    There are very specific problems with offering your solution right away. Unless you accidentally snipe the mark - there is a VERY high chance that the solution you are offering is wrong, or that you are actually not aware of what the real problem is.


    A person has bad crystals, the dps is dieing 7 times in a row, your mystic isn't spawning balls, your priest isn't using energy stars, your tank seems to be missing out on every block.


    The easy go-to assumption most of us tend to make - these people are idiots. They don't know how to play their class. And then we go on to tell them how to do it because we assume they do not know.


    It is easy and effortless to say, "stop dieing", "ffs buff me", "use energystars omg", "spawn balls we keep wiping", "block ffs", "are you retarded?", "focus pls".
    By the way - that is not advice, that is not constructive criticism, that is not coaching. It's not helpful, it's not empowering, it's not gracious, it's not awesome and it's absolutely not respectful. That is bitching and moaning, at best. Stop trying to convince anyone otherwise.


    Yes, it can really be the case that your assumption is right - that your targets do not know how to handle their class, or that they are not focused because they are erping in whisper chat or whatever. Those things happen too, sure.


    It is not a safe assumption, however.
    Why? Because there could be actual pressing reasons they are not doing things the way you expect them to. And if you make the wrong assumption in that case - you get yourself a fire you might not be equipped for to put out in a way before the house has burned down.


    The first step of being elegant - don't even let things go bad. Steps further below will explain more specifically.


    * * *


    How do you get people to do things the way you expect them to?


    Here is just one way: Instead of telling them what or how to do, instead of fking up people's focus during a combat, wait til the wipe and before entering the battle again:


    1. Take a moment, do not rush back in. Wait, let's break it down here.


    2. ASK a question, giving your target the benefit of doubt. DO NOT assume they are stupid or don't know what they are doing - even if that is the case, there is no better way to compliment a person than by trusting their capabilities.
    "Why are you not spawning balls?", "is there anything anyone can do to help you not die so much?", "explain your crystals?", "may I offer you some pointers in not letting x y z not screw you over?" etc.


    3. Listen.
    And you might find that their answer is something unexpected. They had 3rd reasons for doing things what they do, and they literally had no way of getting it right. Or they will get the chance to calmly tell, "oops, forgot about that". Or "oh, I didn't think of that, pretty neat." Or "sure, I can't really figure out x y z, how does it work?" Or that, "let's try one more, I think I got it this time".


    4. Only after having heard their part - if necessary, add your point, offer your solution. If they do not want input or ideas, do not force it on them. That is the most elegant thing you can do in those situations. And people will appreciate you for that.
    Often it happen so that you will not even have to offer your solution after you have heard what their problem was, or you will find out that they are aware of said solution and planned to implement it on their own anyway.


    * * *


    So here's the idea - Giving advice isn't the key, as it's not always even necessary. Skipping 1-3 is a big mistake. It's what annoying micromanagers do. It's what impatient people do. It's what makes the obnoxious - the message skipping these 3 sends to your target - you don't trust their capabilities, you assume they don't know what they are doing - and god knows why.


    Timing, asking the right questions, and listening is the key that makes you an excellent coach or a leader.


    * * *


    The idea of coaching people isn't to speed things up, but to empower them.


    If your intent is to speed things up, do not expect that people will take it lightly, because, even if you reason that it benefits the whole party - that is only a silver lining, and it is a very selfish and bullshit way to handle it. And you have no rights in excellency to label it as advice or guidelines - you are not on a high horse there. In that case it is "demands", and do not try to convince people that it is advice, or that they should learn to take it like a man.


    * * *


    Learning how to be efficient and empowering without having to offer any advice yourself will get you a long way - and it can often be the best kind of feedback - not only in the game, but this also applies in real life, in the professional world, in relationships and real teamwork.


    Instead of becoming petty enemies over silly demands and misunderstandings, reprogram this TINY aspect of how you deliver, and instead of petty negativity you already make the gaming environment a better place, your's and another player's gameplay way more fun, and who knows, make a long-time friend out of a person who could hold grudges against you for months, only because you are too lazy to go trough 1-3.
    Go trough 1-3 and maybe you even help them become a better player instead of having them drop the party and scoffing at their behind, "good riddance, poor player anyway."


    * * *


    If you desire to continue with the philosophy of effortless tough love, that people should really take your commands, advice and opinion with gratitude and respect, then I here is how I have come to understand things - for gratitude and respect we actually DO need to run an extra mile. It's something we earn by being gracious and respectful, and it's something people give out only when they feel good about us.


    We can never get respect or gratitude from the people that we get tilted. Also, sadly we can't get gratitude because we have suffered a lot in life, or because we have done great things in life that have nothing to do with the current moment whatsoever.


    If you do have arguments that support being arrogant and points that make it efficient - I am very interested in hearing those.



    Merry Christmas, see you in court o/

    Your Friendly Neighborhood Advocatus Diaboli

    Judging by the posting date, I've kept this thread as an open tab in my browser to read later for exactly 3 months, as I finally read it just now. Good one, @System 23! Some very good points raised that also make one think about their own ways even if they don't fully agree with everything.


    I'm going to go ahead and use this opportunity to say 'I'm sorry' to those unintentionally or otherwise affected by some of my comments - past and future - in battlegrounds, recently mostly in Fraywind and Gridiron, as I stopped doing CS. Are we friends again?
    As to dungeons - been doing mostly noob level instances lately such as VH HM, AI HM and the like where little can go wrong, so I hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toe in recent months with an impulsive comment or unsolicited advice.


    Quote from System 23

    If you do have arguments that support being arrogant and points that make it efficient - I am very interested in hearing those.

    It doesn't have to be arrogance - the alternative to going through steps 1-3 isn't necessarily disrespecting others, condescending them or demonstrating knowledge/skill superiority. For example, in combat there isn't always time to pause, provoke self-reflection, listen and then maybe give advice. When you see someone wearing the same inappropriate crystals in battlegrounds day after day, what do you do - ask them if they think they're using the best setup? Please. What you do is you tell them they shouldn't wear this but that instead.


    Situation:
    There are 30 seconds left until combat starts and upon inspecting someone you see they are wearing focused and bitter cruxes. What do you do in the remaining 20 seconds? You ignore that, initiate a kick vote, call them names, make a 'it's lost' kinda comment or advise them what crystals (not) to wear? Sometimes there's literally no time to write. Inspecting 5+ people takes time, even more so when they are bundled at the entrance. I often put my char on autorun because I am typing during the 5-sec countdown. And no, I don't have time to ask them if they think they should be wearing PvE crystals in a battleground. I just tell them what they should (not) do and if they care enough to consider my opinion afterwards, they can do their research after the battleground ends or they could ask me what I meant right after if they want to improve. If not, they can just disregard my comment (which often happens with a 'don't tell me what to do' kinda comment) and that's it but next time they'll be just as noob. This time I wouldn't be so understanding though as the person obviously ignored my advice and the whole team is likely to suffer the consequences of wasting their time, so I might make a comment that will probably not be much to their liking in order to make them stop for a moment and think: 'Why's he being a d*ck towards me? Am I really doing something wrong?' I've often used this method in CS - calling people idiots - when I want to draw their attention to what I believe is the problem. Otherwise they don't even notice you exist. And sometimes you can tell who'll respond to diplomacy (steps 1-3) and who won't (straight to step 4).


    There's often a language barrier too, so as much as you may want to use emotional intelligence while giving feedback, it's sometimes just not possible, as people simply don't understand what you're saying - be it because there is no time for you to explain (mid-combat or during battlegrounds), language barrier or the receiver is one of those easily offended types who take even the friendliest approach as a personal attack.


    I love it when during combat you - the party/raid leader - say something and someone asks you 'why?' So, I'm trying to do my part (let's say I'm healing) while also leading the raid and they are making me explain myself? wtf Yes, people don't always understand how hard it can be to try and keep others alive while also trying not to get yourself killed AND use raid chat. That's why I try and explain stuff beforehand but this simply isn't always possible, so when I ask something to be done, I expect it to be done - no questions asked. They can ask later, of course, but not mid-combat.


    Here's an example:
    You're fighting at north in FWC at 3:00 and you can barely say 'go south' without letting people or yourself die. You see mid is red (i.e. in enemy's possession) and you anticipate some if not most people will want to cap it on the way south, so you take another few seconds to add 'skip mid.' Then someone asks you why. They bloody ask you why!!! What do you do? You stop and ask them if it's wise to go there when south BAM is about to spawn and you spend 1 minute explaining there's very little time until tera spawns and spending 15+ sec to get to mid and cap it may give the enemy enough time to regroup at south and even kill the BAM before you've reached the pit because someone put you in combat and/or your raid split up and not only lost the BAM but also fed the enemy in a 7 vs 15 fight? Or you'd expect them to follow your instruction since you're the f*cking raid leader and, even though you may not always make the right calls, sticking together is more often than not better than splitting and feeding?


    When I get the lead by the system or by someone who'd rather pass the cancer of leading to someone else, I expect people to follow my instructions. If they want to lead, they are more than welcome to ask for it and issue orders themselves. It's MUCH MORE RELAXING to only focus on your role and follow orders instead of also looking at the time, scanning, writing on raid chat and keeping an eye on the map. So when they didn't ask for the lead or plain randomly passed it to someone else, I expect them to forget their selfishness and let the people I appointed get the mob buffs at start, stick with the raid instead of PvP on their own and go where asked to go without questioning my every word.


    If there is time and I can afford to write more, I might say 'ignore naga and focus players' (because the BAM gives only 400 points and killing people is likely to give you more points overall and lead to the enemy spreading). Again, it's not exactly the best time to explain everything in detail. If they want to lead, they can be my guest and do it. But they gotta be prepared to get the blame for losing because even if you do great as a leader AND the raid listens to you, sometimes the enemy is simply better. Even though you did well, it's often the leader people address their disappointment to if they feel dissatisfied that their effort didn't get rewarded. People rarely appreciate a good fight more than a victory.


    While steps 1-3 are good to always apply, 3 to 18 other people may not always be prepared to wait for this one individual to learn and improve, so sometimes it's better to ask someone to leave than keeping them and hoping their skills/knowledge will skyrocket in 10 minutes. Yes, it may not always be fair towards the individual but the raid leader has a responsibility towards the group too. A chain is as strong as its weakest link. That's why I try and make that person understand that they are not prepared and need to leave. I am against kicking people without giving them a chance to do better or at least explaining why. I prefer if they leave on their own accord, do their homework and try again at a later time. I've tried pleasing everyone on many occasions but it just doesn't always work, so one's often forced to choose the lesser evil.


    Making someone doubt themselves sometimes seems more condescending to me than plain sharing my opinion right away. I think there's no universal approach. However, being more careful in how you deliver your message never hurts indeed, I agree.

    I saw somewhere that they did an experiment on two groups of people. One group was constantly told they suck, the other was praised. Guess who performed better? The former.


    Because it made them try harder.

    all metioned staff can be used in case of new pach - be patient, be understanding, be polite, be funny, be openminded, try again, explain details, explore people possibilities


    but if you come to ie DW now, and join "4x quick DW" and recognize that tank dont know how to block etc - flame on him!!! :) :) no just kidding, if Im in party which claimed that its skilled party - there are some possibilities (with DW as example)
    1. there is wipe on first or second boss, but you see if was just bad luck, people are good but shit happens sometimes - its called fun :) just make some jokes and the guy who wiped party will probably says Im sorry,
    2. you will wipe and party is good - apologize, and dont feel guilty, it can happend sometimes, they are good, they can see you are good, they understand
    3. there is wipe - and you see the party is average, they are maybe low in eq, maybe not so much skilled, but they try and there is a potential to finish dungeon - give advices, try harder to help party and leave only after cca 4 wipes if you see it is not managable
    4. there are noobs, nervous, no skill - give it one more try and leave without explanation - you dont need to waste your time with explanation and discussion with those people - anyway, you dont want to go to party with them (you can put them to your block list with note :) :) )


    - be polite, be fun, its game for fun, but to be satisfied it required passion and tension - I dont care if some skilled person says little harder: omg ppl, cmnon, what kind of shit are you doing, whats wrong with you? - this will motivate normal people to put them together and perform better. but after kill it shoud have to be said with this person: well done, or gg :) otherwise everyone will remember him as pain in the as :)
    - clear your block list every year, some people change overtime :) (some not, but you can block them again :) )



    People whom I hate - noobs, who are very badly performing and blaming all others for that :) and those without crystals, etchings and glyphs!!
    - for unskilled/starting people - if you are going to learn about dungeon, do "training run" sometimes exp players will join to help and explain you things - if you look to youtube tactics, is normal to have still some wipes in training run - and it still fun to play :) or find a guild, go to teamspeak/discord and learn and discuss and have fun :)


    Read about another study. If you have a plant and you flame it all the day it will grow better and become stronger cause the environment for the plant is better...


    We need more plants in game. :crazy:

    Frieden ist eine Lüge
    Es gibt nur Leidenschaft
    Durch Leidenschaft erlange ich Kraft
    Durch Kraft erlange ich Macht
    Die Macht gewährt mir den Sieg
    Der Sieg zerbricht meine Ketten.


    Darth Bane

    Quote from Mxyzptlk

    Read about another study. If you have a plant and you flame it all the day it will grow better and become stronger cause the environment for the plant is better...

    No, if you flame it all day it will burn to ashes and die. However, the ashes may provide a better, a bit more fertile environment to grow for a new plant!



    (Overly sensitive player - a player that rage quits all the time or something similiar - quits the game due to getting flamed too much, one less of them makes the game a bit better for others)


    Edit: I mean you are right too, different kinds of players take feedback differently