The State of Tanks (Brawler/Lancer)

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    • The State of Tanks (Brawler/Lancer)

      Hi, I’m Nepgear from Mystel, one of the top Brawlers in EU, writer of the Complete Awakened Brawler guide and owner of the Brawler class Discord. There has been a large influx in the Brawler community in the last few weeks with the release of Elin Brawler, which has brought to light a lot of issues faced by new players. I’m concerned about the current state of Brawler as a Tank. Personally, in the endgame community I often struggle to make or join parties due to my class. However, I’m also quite concerned that an increasing number of new players have messaged me saying they frequently get rejected from LFG, and even kicked in Instance Matching. Many of them have also repeatedly been told to ‘reroll’ to Lancer by their friends and guilds. It saddens me when people reach out to me to ask what they’ve done to deserve this. Brawler is a fun class that I love and I don’t think it’s fair that people (especially new players) are treated so badly based on the class the play.

      Since the first set of awakenings, there has been a growing disparity between the different tanking classes in Tera. For now, I'm only going to discuss Brawler and Lancer, as those are the only ‘dedicated’ tanking classes, while Warrior and Berserker have a primary role as dps. I’ll start by outlining the major jobs of a tank, then go into detail on how Brawler/Lancer fulfil these jobs, and what changes could be made to reduce this disparity.

      In Tera, a tank has four jobs:

      • Holding aggro
      • Positioning the boss
      • Supporting the party with buffs, boss debuffs and other utility
      • Dealing damage

      To begin with, I’ll just state that the intended design of Brawler is to be weaker at party support and stronger at dealing damage, while the reverse is intended for Lancer.

      • There are two ways to hold aggro in Tera, either through using a guaranteed aggro ‘shout’ eg Provoke that guarantees aggro for around 5s, or to deal high damage to the boss. Lancer shout has a low cooldown of just over 5s, hence a Lancer can permanently hold aggro without even touching the boss (And hold perfect aggro even when dps do more than 10x the Lancer’s dps eg moongourd.com/encounter?area=982&boss=2000&log=5bf6a81a03412 ). Brawler on the other hand has a 20s cooldown on Provoke. This is just too long, especially for new players that are still learning dungeon mechanics etc. The cooldown should be reduced to 12 seconds. In addition, Brawler’s innate aggro modifier is too low. A lot of new Brawler players complain that they have serious problems holding aggro when a higher geared dps is in the party. In my opinion, Brawler aggro should be increased by 20%.
      • A key aspect of tanking is repositioning to the front of the boss to reduce how much the boss turns. There is a popular belief that Brawlers can’t reposition, which is true to an extent. Brawler cannot afford to waste Quick Dash (iframe) to reposition as it has a long 8s reuse timer. Meanwhile, Lancers can afford to use Backstep to reposition as they have an abundance of RE and no cooldown on it. I think this could be fixed by reducing Quick Dash’s reuse timer to 5s. Brawler’s other main movement skill Bull Rush is often required to avoid boss mechanics. Most skills that have movement such as Piledriver and Roundhouse Kick are also key dps skills, and so are often not available. Hence, I think Brawler should be given a new skill to reposition with, a ‘frontstab’ that teleports to the front of the boss.
      • Brawler is not designed to provide party support, hence it only has an endurance debuff (which is the same value as Lancer’s 12%) and Infuriate which is shared with Lancer. However, the main problem is how Lancers give too much party support. Firstly, Adrenaline Rush is bugged to give a 15.5% damage buff instead of the 5% stated on tooltip. This bug should be fixed as it is absurd how much dps Lancer parties are able to do. Secondly, the awakened Lancer skills Guardian Barrier and Divine Protection are too strong. They allow parties with a Lancer to completely skip some mechanics and one-shots, especially wipe mechanics. This is far too strong in some dungeons such as Dreadspire, as there is a mechanic for Lancer to ‘cheese’ on every floor. This also makes it difficult for new Brawler players to find parties as people who have run with Lancers are used to skipping certain mechanics and so prefer to play ‘easy mode’ with a Lancer. In my opinion, the two should be combined into a single skill, or removed entirely.
      • Brawler is designed to compensate for its lack of party support by providing high damage, while Lancer is designed to deal low damage to compensate for having so much party support. However, if you compare the dps of both classes, even after EP has been released (which is a huge buff to Brawler dps) Lancers do about 70% of a Brawler’s dps. This is due both Lancer damage being high and Brawler damage being low. Part of this is because of the Brawler skill Rhythmic Blows, which says it increases power by 8% per stack, however this is base power (3-4, which is 0.5% dps buff) per stack and not total power, and so is not really noticeable. This should be fixed either to 8% total power, or to 8% skill damage per stack. Lancer damage should also be nerfed by 10% to match the class design.

      I think with all these concerns addressed, both tanking classes would be equally viable and both new players and endgame players would be able to play whichever class they enjoy.

      TL;DR new Brawler players having issues with aggro (especially when running with higher geared players) and positioning (especially in new dungeons), and getting kicked in Instance Matching and refused in LFG in favour of Lancer due to Lancer party support. Proposed changes to fix, in order of priority:

      • Fix Adrenaline Rush bug where buff gives 15.5% skill damage instead of 5%
      • Add a ‘frontstab’ skill to allow Brawler to reposition
      • Reduce Quick Dash reuse timer from 8 seconds to 5 seconds
      • Merge Guardian Barrier and Divine Protection
      • Reduce Provoke cooldown from 20 seconds to 12 seconds
      • Reduce Lancer damage dealt by 10%
      • Add 20% innate aggro modifier
      • Fix damage buff from Rhythmic Blows from base power to skill damage
    • Moved the thread into a more appropriate section.


      Purpleheart wrote:


      • Reduce Lancer damage dealt by 10%


      I think lancer damage should be reduced slightly more than 10%.
      Let's go back to the times when tanks used to tank, and not try to max dps in favour of pissing of the dps which have to reposition every 10 seconds.

      :elin21:
      "The black dress was fringed by countless laces and frills. These outlines of her were enfolded by metallic protectors on the back of her hands and a rustic tasset. Her looks reminded one of the ceremonial robes of medieval knights—an odd mixture that could be called neither dress nor armour. And finally, where normally there might have been a ribbon, she was wearing an old, metallic chest."
    • Ey congratz for this thread is very interesting, now in my opinion:

      I dont mind run with lancer or brawlers cuz i dont mind the dps, and that is the main problem here. DPS ppl are a whore dps and want to do greedy dps and stuff, if there isnt DPS metter or moongourd this will not happen, but ey i want to do 4/m sec and with brawler i cant so i will take a lancer.
    • All the point you say are defenitly true. And the changes you propose would probably lead to brawler & lancer partys do the same group dps. That would atleast make brawler a bit more viable for the ranking system. But i doubt, that it would change the whole situation for brawlers at all.

      The main issue we have right now is the mindset of BH in terms of the support tank & damage tank split. What mindset? I will explain it.

      Rightnow BH is trying to balance brawler, wartank & lancer around the same group dps. But thats a real problem, because brawler wont be usefull by just doing the same group dps. Because:
      • Why would u take a brawler, if u can have same group dps, while having more personal dps?
      • Why would u take a brawler, if u can have same group dps, while having Guardian Barrier and Divine Protection to skip mechanics, that lead to a safer clear & easier clear.
      So yeah. The current intentions of BH for their tank classes & the current intentions of BH to balance out group dps, will never make brawler usefull compared to lancer. What BH needs to do for tank balance after your short term changes, are:
      • Give every tank an edge over the other ones by having some kind of special group support & group safty shields. But, that would obviously change the wohle designe of brawler itself.
      • Accept, that with having a damage tank means also that the group dps has to be higher. So lancer groups have to pay with group dps for their higher personal dps and the safty shields.
      I personaly dont see any other way to make brawler usefull, because your changes would just make it a bit 'okayisch'.
    • Make grwoing fury party shared at 30 - 50% of it's value, but getting the full atkspeed penality. This would be interesting tho and open ups new weapon roll for dps (I.e attackspeed) or atkspeed vyrsk.

      Or you can make so that growing fury adds an aura upon activation for 20 sec which gives exact same benefit to the party. All party Members get a debuff which prevent them to gettin the buff again for 1 min and 30 sec (just like a rush)
    • Firstly, I get what you're going for with the multiple dots, but bringing up two points during the same paragraph makes it extremely unorganized and difficult to quote properly :elin33:

      Purpleheart wrote:



      • There are two ways to hold aggro in Tera, either through using a guaranteed aggro ‘shout’ eg Provoke that guarantees aggro for around 5s, or to deal high damage to the boss. Lancer shout has a low cooldown of just over 5s, hence a Lancer can permanently hold aggro without even touching the boss (And hold perfect aggro even when dps do more than 10x the Lancer’s dps eg moongourd.com/encounter?area=982&boss=2000&log=5bf6a81a03412 ). Brawler on the other hand has a 20s cooldown on Provoke. This is just too long, especially for new players that are still learning dungeon mechanics etc. The cooldown should be reduced to 12 seconds. In addition, Brawler’s innate aggro modifier is too low. A lot of new Brawler players complain that they have serious problems holding aggro when a higher geared dps is in the party. In my opinion, Brawler aggro should be increased by 20%.

      I'm not sure what world you live in, but lancers have 10 seconds cooldown on their aggro shout :elin18:
      Instead of increasing the aggro on brawler by 20%, you could glyph growing fury, which is 20% aggro increase and the skill should have more or less 99% uptime. It's a design choice of the class, you need to deal damage to hold aggro, if you can't deal said damage you glyph aggro and/or go threatening crystal :elin5:

      Purpleheart wrote:


      • A key aspect of tanking is repositioning to the front of the boss to reduce how much the boss turns. There is a popular belief that Brawlers can’t reposition, which is true to an extent. Brawler cannot afford to waste Quick Dash (iframe) to reposition as it has a long 8s reuse timer. Meanwhile, Lancers can afford to use Backstep to reposition as they have an abundance of RE and no cooldown on it. I think this could be fixed by reducing Quick Dash’s reuse timer to 5s. Brawler’s other main movement skill Bull Rush is often required to avoid boss mechanics. Most skills that have movement such as Piledriver and Roundhouse Kick are also key dps skills, and so are often not available. Hence, I think Brawler should be given a new skill to reposition with, a ‘frontstab’ that teleports to the front of the boss.

      I do agree that quick dash should have the reuse timer reduces to 5s, at 8 seconds it's really punishing. But brawlers still have plenty of movement needed, lancers doesn't have an abundance of RE as I hear my tanks talk somewhat frequently about not having enough RE to do anything about a attack and dying to it, although to me that sounds more like a skill issue. :elin30:

      Purpleheart wrote:


      • Brawler is not designed to provide party support, hence it only has an endurance debuff (which is the same value as Lancer’s 12%) and Infuriate which is shared with Lancer. However, the main problem is how Lancers give too much party support. Firstly, Adrenaline Rush is bugged to give a 15.5% damage buff instead of the 5% stated on tooltip. This bug should be fixed as it is absurd how much dps Lancer parties are able to do. Secondly, the awakened Lancer skills Guardian Barrier and Divine Protection are too strong. They allow parties with a Lancer to completely skip some mechanics and one-shots, especially wipe mechanics. This is far too strong in some dungeons such as Dreadspire, as there is a mechanic for Lancer to ‘cheese’ on every floor. This also makes it difficult for new Brawler players to find parties as people who have run with Lancers are used to skipping certain mechanics and so prefer to play ‘easy mode’ with a Lancer. In my opinion, the two should be combined into a single skill, or removed entirely.


      I think that merging the skills or removing them isn't realistic, a more realistic approach would be to make DP(divine protection) apply a iframe instead of a invulnerability to any attack. But I agree, they are too strong(DP and GB) :elin22:

      Purpleheart wrote:


      • Brawler is designed to compensate for its lack of party support by providing high damage, while Lancer is designed to deal low damage to compensate for having so much party support. However, if you compare the dps of both classes, even after EP has been released (which is a huge buff to Brawler dps) Lancers do about 70% of a Brawler’s dps. This is due both Lancer damage being high and Brawler damage being low. Part of this is because of the Brawler skill Rhythmic Blows, which says it increases power by 8% per stack, however this is base power (3-4, which is 0.5% dps buff) per stack and not total power, and so is not really noticeable. This should be fixed either to 8% total power, or to 8% skill damage per stack. Lancer damage should also be nerfed by 10% to match the class design.

      Try like 66-67%, but close enough I guess :elin3: . Again, biased much? :elin20: (I'm talking about people not blatantly cheating of course)

      Purpleheart wrote:

      TL;DR new Brawler players having issues with aggro (especially when running with higher geared players) and positioning (especially in new dungeons), and getting kicked in Instance Matching and refused in LFG in favour of Lancer due to Lancer party support.
      This is a skill/lack of knowledge issue. Even new lancers will have issue holding aggro against higher geared players (I can hear you say "b-but they can just shout", no they are new players. They can't). People kicking brawlers will just be people being people, not to mention having horrible experience with brawler tanks due to the type of people the class attracts doesn't make them seem appealing. More often than not more supportive people will be drawn to lancer due to the class and more selfish and self centered people will be drawn to brawlers. :elin1:


      Vernessa wrote:

      The main issue we have right now is the mindset of BH in terms of the support tank & damage tank split. What mindset? I will explain it.


      Rightnow BH is trying to balance brawler, wartank & lancer around the same group dps. But thats a real problem, because brawler wont be usefull by just doing the same group dps. Because:
      • Why would u take a brawler, if u can have same group dps, while having more personal dps?
      • Why would u take a brawler, if u can have same group dps, while having Guardian Barrier and Divine Protection to skip mechanics, that lead to a safer clear & easier clear.
      So yeah. The current intentions of BH for their tank classes & the current intentions of BH to balance out group dps, will never make brawler usefull compared to lancer. What BH needs to do for tank balance after your short term changes, are:
      • Give every tank an edge over the other ones by having some kind of special group support & group safty shields. But, that would obviously change the wohle designe of brawler itself.
      • Accept, that with having a damage tank means also that the group dps has to be higher. So lancer groups have to pay with group dps for their higher personal dps and the safty shields.

      This is impossible and also false. Given the exact same party comps a brawler party may or may not be faster than the lancer party, but it's simply due to the classes in said parties. Classes which relies on burst more than substain dps will have a better time in a lancer party compared to a brawler party(party dps wise speaking, not personal dps wise) since most of their damage comes out during arush. :elin27:
      If we imagine a party of 3 warriors, priest(because warriors doesn't run with mystic, we all know this) and lancer vs the exact same party except with a brawler, the brawler party may very well outdps the lancer party since assuming a 3:30(ish) fight the warriors will only have 2/4 deadly gambles in arush, meaning that the additional damage the brawler applies will potentially make up for that loss, of course warrior is a slightly bad example since they gain a lot from attack speed, something which lancer applies :elin14: but the concept remains the same. During apex 1 patch lancer and brawler were pretty similar in terms of overall party dps since zerk and warrior was the "meta" and both gained negligible things from lancers arush since most of their damage didn't come during the time when arush was up. :elin11:

      :elin37: :elin37: :elin39: :elin39: :elin40: :elin40:
    • Purpleheart wrote:

      There is a popular belief that Brawlers can’t reposition, which is true to an extent. Brawler cannot afford to waste Quick Dash (iframe) to reposition as it has a long 8s reuse timer.
      Most skills that have movement such as Piledriver and Roundhouse Kick are also key dps skills, and so are often not available.
      To be honest this just sounds like laziness from brawler's side, Lancers can't afford always to dodge with backstep and most likely after that they aren't position properly anyway and have to fix it with Shield Barrage and Combo Attack skate, which from what you said it's doable with Brawler as well so I don't get your point, just AA-skate / Piledriver to move yourself around the boss :elin20: and yes like Kasea said Lancers can't afford to dodge all the time or they run out of resolve and actually need the resolve to dodge / block

      Purpleheart wrote:

      Hence, I think Brawler should be given a new skill to reposition with, a ‘frontstab’ that teleports to the front of the boss.
      Why shouldn't lancer get this as well then? So easy to reposition as Lancer, just Backstep 2 times (not like 2 Backsteps is 1400 RE) until you're perfectly in front of the boss :elin15:

      Purpleheart wrote:

      They allow parties with a Lancer to completely skip some mechanics and one-shots, especially wipe mechanics
      I agree with you, GB & DP are way too strong skills, they shouldn't allow to cheese through mechanics but it's the way BHS intended it, only thing GF could do is disable DP so Lancer is left with just GB (since it's also a DPS skill) :elin12:

      Purpleheart wrote:

      This bug should be fixed as it is absurd how much dps Lancer parties are able to do.
      How sure are you about this? Maybe Brawler just not popular so not many parses to compare runs with (can't compare EUC runs as they have old CAP) :elin12: comparing grotto HM last boss (non EUC) the highest Lancer party and highest Brawler party is about 3M/s party DPS difference, then again have people ever tried to tryhard with a Brawler as tank? :elin18: People care about their own DPS not party DPS bet many of them don't even bother tryharding properly

      Purpleheart wrote:

      Lancer is designed to deal low damage to compensate for having so much party support
      Who said this tho? They gave Lancer Super Leap to deal low damage? :elin18:

      Purpleheart wrote:

      Lancer damage should also be nerfed by 10% to match the class design
      Unlike Brawler, Lancer crit rate makes DPS pretty unstable, you could be dealing 5M/s in one run, and in a run with same HPM you get 4.2M/s just because your crit got distributed well :elin12: I don't think nerfing the damage itself would be that great of an idea, especially because happens from time to time to lose aggro because lack of crit (yes this actually happens) best example is Kelsaik (F5 of DS4) where most likely you're left without HTL stacks and you sit with 60 less crit factor and just burn 33% critrate with horrible aggro losses and boss turns :elin20:
      Personally either lower damage but guarantee crit, or don't touch it and leave as it is :elin35:

      Purpleheart wrote:

      I think with all these concerns addressed, both tanking classes would be equally viable and both new players and endgame players would be able to play whichever class they enjoy.
      Yes they should be both equally viable, actually Brawler is more played than Lancer in KTERA, lets just wait until people farm up some more EP and see what happens, I personally don't enjoy Brawler but it's unrelated to the "weakness" of the class, I simply hate the "Big Fists Girl" design just terrible... :elin15:
    • Purpleheart wrote:

      Brawler on the other hand has a 20s cooldown on Provoke. This is just too long, especially for new players that are still learning dungeon mechanics etc. The cooldown should be reduced to 12 seconds. In addition, Brawler’s innate aggro modifier is too low. A lot of new Brawler players complain that they have serious problems holding aggro when a higher geared dps is in the party. In my opinion, Brawler aggro should be increased by 20%.
      BREAKING NEWS!






      Purpleheart wrote:

      There is a popular belief that Brawlers can’t reposition, which is true to an extent. Brawler cannot afford to waste Quick Dash (iframe) to reposition as it has a long 8s reuse timer.
      Actually you can just reposition yourself with basic attacks or piledriver. If you waste iframes for repositioning thats just your fault and lack of skills ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      Purpleheart wrote:

      Hence, I think Brawler should be given a new skill to reposition with, a ‘frontstab’ that teleports to the front of the boss.
      ????? Lmfao.
    • I like the frontstab idea.
      I also think tank class descriptions at the start of the game should be adjusted, so that players know which class is more party oriented.

      Party utility will depend on dungeons, and this is where I believe developers can step in and make brawler desired on a level similar to lancers, without nerfing lancers. If future dungeons require raw damage and less cheesing of mechanics, then people won't mind having a brawler nearly as much. There will always be people who want a.rush, but that's unavoidable. Additionally, introducing more blockable knockdown mechanics is another very subtle way to 'nerf' lancer damage while keeping brawler in an alright position. A lancer who's too greedy will end up eating a hit and being knocked down, losing their hold-the-line stacks in the process. A brawler would not have to worry about this at all because of growing fury. In this way, and others, the developers can turn the tides by simply designing more to one class's strengths than another. This method, I believe, is far superior to simply gutting a lancer's kit because it allows everyone to keep their stuff, and it allows a good enough player to be relatively unaffected by it.

      This is coming from someone who mained lancer when brawler first came out, and got to experience being unwanted by virtually everyone because brawler was so far ahead. This is also coming from someone who mained priest when mystic was the desired healer, and got to have people say to my face that they wished a mystic had joined the group instead. I get it completely; it's a terrible feeling. But if all you do is nerf the opposing class, then you're just putting the shoe on the other foot. Removing lancer awakening support skills, nerfing a.rush, and giving them a 10% damage cut would basically make it brawler-release all over again. Change the content, not the classes.
    • I guess there is no need to nerf lancer and people hate running with brawlers because most ppl playing brawler are brainless they don't care abt positioning only abt dps I rarely play with brawlers that position the boss very well otherwise i really don't care what tank to play with. And as most ppl said the main reason ppl prefare lancer to brawler is that they want to see high dps numbers and damage else i think in term of party dps the damage is the same
    • Umi wrote:

      Purpleheart wrote:

      Brawler on the other hand has a 20s cooldown on Provoke. This is just too long, especially for new players that are still learning dungeon mechanics etc. The cooldown should be reduced to 12 seconds. In addition, Brawler’s innate aggro modifier is too low. A lot of new Brawler players complain that they have serious problems holding aggro when a higher geared dps is in the party. In my opinion, Brawler aggro should be increased by 20%.
      BREAKING NEWS!





      Purpleheart wrote:

      There is a popular belief that Brawlers can’t reposition, which is true to an extent. Brawler cannot afford to waste Quick Dash (iframe) to reposition as it has a long 8s reuse timer.
      Actually you can just reposition yourself with basic attacks or piledriver. If you waste iframes for repositioning thats just your fault and lack of skills ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      Purpleheart wrote:

      Hence, I think Brawler should be given a new skill to reposition with, a ‘frontstab’ that teleports to the front of the boss.
      ????? Lmfao.
      Even with energetic glyph in provoke the cd still won't go down to the base cd of the aggro shout lancers have. Just make both skills have the same base cd and the difference is gone. Also 4 for each of these glyphs is just too much.

      Before you repositioned yourself with aas and pd the boss will be already turning to you if not even being finished with it and you want to avoid that.

      While I would love to see a frontstab in brawler I think that skill is more suited to warrior tanks where it would just be the backstab in dstance.

      Now some general stuff regarding the answers here.
      In all the time I have played lancer I only had RE problems when I was new in a dungeon. When I'm new in a dungeon I block and dodge too much. Before anyone asks: No I don't play with the 500 RE glyph.
      Divine Protection and the Reinhardt shield need to be nerfed or merged. I don't care which one but they are just too strong.
      Rechtsschreibfeler? Kenn ick nicht. Kann man dass Essen?

      EU:
      Arlassa - Kriegermain - Castanic - Lvl 65 - Yurian
      Matoi.Ryuko - Kriegertwink - Castanic - Lvl 65 - Yurian
      Rânâ.Lînchên - Brawler - Mensch - Lvl 65 - Yurian
      Lucymârvel - Mystiker - Castanic - Lvl 65 - Yurian
      Arlos - Lanzer - Mensch - Lvl 65 - Yurian
      verschiedene nicht Lvl 65 Chars
    • Kasea wrote:



      Vernessa wrote:

      ...
      • Why would u take a brawler, if u can have same group dps, while having more personal dps?
      • Why would u take a brawler, if u can have same group dps, while having Guardian Barrier and Divine Protection to skip mechanics, that lead to a safer clear & easier clear.

      This is impossible and also false. Given the exact same party comps a brawler party may or may not be faster than the lancer party, but it's simply due to the classes in said parties. Classes which relies on burst more than substain dps will have a better time in a lancer party compared to a brawler party(party dps wise speaking, not personal dps wise) since most of their damage comes out during arush. :elin27: If we imagine a party of 3 warriors, priest(because warriors doesn't run with mystic, we all know this) and lancer vs the exact same party except with a brawler, the brawler party may very well outdps the lancer party since assuming a 3:30(ish) fight the warriors will only have 2/4 deadly gambles in arush, meaning that the additional damage the brawler applies will potentially make up for that loss, of course warrior is a slightly bad example since they gain a lot from attack speed, something which lancer applies :elin14: but the concept remains the same. During apex 1 patch lancer and brawler were pretty similar in terms of overall party dps since zerk and warrior was the "meta" and both gained negligible things from lancers arush since most of their damage didn't come during the time when arush was up. :elin11:What exactly is false? I guess nothing, because you didnt
      What exactly is wrong? I guess nothing, if you didnt stated it. Anyway, that aside. What you have pointed out is completly right. There are classes that are more dependent from lancer Adrenaline Rush than others. The same as brawler dps is very dependent on the boss designe.

      But, yes. There are definitely some group compositions that can do more group dps with brawler in some cases. So the balancing BH is aiming for is not that far off. So in this point BH is doing slowly but surely good work.

      The thing is, thats exactly the problem and also my main point. Balancing brawler und lancer group dps around the same value will not change any problem the TE has stated. And the two reasons for that are stated above.

      So, yeah. The class designe itself is just flawed. It would probably even easier for BH to add a dps stance for brawler to avoid dealing with that.
    • This reminds me of how Brawlers and Slayers used to be top-tier classes once.

      What really needs to change is BhS' approach towards classes balancement, which goes somewhat like this :

      Make classes X,Y,Z great with a certain patch , let tons of people be drawn to them, spend money on them so they can feel Amazing for a few months, then switch to 3 different classes on the next patch. Rinse and repeat the rotation endlessly.

      What you can expect, if you play one class and one only, is it being really good for a few months every 2-3 years.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Kaikanken ().

    • Here is the solution to the tank problem:

      Just make Zerktank the new and only tank meta.
      - Give Tankzerk 100%crit on axecounter like Lancer has.
      - Make Lethalstrike useable during defstance
      - Give Zerk in defstance 2 charges of his dodge 5s cd
      - Give Zerks in defstance 75% reduced damage taken during Thunderstrike charging
      - Increase Zerks def in defstance by 50%
      - Increase the duration of the Endurance debuff by 100% via glyph and increase it's effect to 12%
      - Give Unleash in defstance a 50% damage reduction and increased aggro generation, as well as not canceling the def stance at the end
      - Give Zerk an enrage shout
      - Make his attackspeedbuff and damage buff for all Party members



      The main reason i write here is, don't forget that there is only 2 tank options. It's sad to see only Lancer and some Brawlers. Warrior tank actually is pretty fine, maybe even above Brawler, sadly you never see it, since Lancer is far to dominant.

      My idea would be, just give Brawler some kind of Group support, maybe enhanced enrage time since Brawler is kind of enrage(fury) themed.
    • Frontstep would be a cool way to make tanking easier for new and less informed players and I believe all tanks should have access to it if they do implement something like that.

      Taunts should have parity between all tanks, literally no reason not to.

      If the Lancer skill Divine Protection has to be reworked I would love for it to be something equivalent to Kaia's Shield.
      It would still serve a defensive purpose without really allowing mechanics to be skipped that otherwise wouldn't be.

      The real problem with Brawler is that nobody likes playing with them for 2 main reasons.

      1) Most Brawlers are awful at repositioning or outright greedy not following the boss
      2) They provide no cool buffs

      The first can't be remedied without a reposition skill as you suggested because that's just what some people play like. (to the annoyance of many)
      The second will need a change in class design that I feel is long overdue.

      Brawlers need to give some kind of party buff even if it's ever so slight, people love buffs and this will ultimately make the class more popular.
      The question becomes what kind of buff should a Brawler give to a party that makes it fair compared to the other current viable tanks.

      I would suggest a party buff based on the Brawler his own individual skill, related to rage, perfect blocks or anything that requires human input as Growing Fury plays the game for you a lot already.
      They could copy what warriors give and give attack speed if it'll be an easy input or have the Brawler share some of the skill damage increase upon perfect blocking with manual block.

      I don't know what would be a proper buff to be given, what I do think is that if Brawlers remain a pure DPS tank class that unless they make Lancers irrelevant as they did during VM6 that the class will never see any rise in popularity again and which in turn will never lift the stigma surrounding the class either.